Ablorde:
Hello and welcome to the Relationships Edge podcast. You have Oblurdeh Ishigbe, I’m your host. And I’m super grateful today to have our guest, Sean Johnson. Sean, thanks for joining us.

Sean:
Thanks for having me. It’s been fun to watch the four degrees journey and to watch you personally. And so excited, obviously we have similar interests in this topic. So really excited to dig in with you.

Ablorde:
Yeah, we’re super excited to have you join us. I’ll maybe jump right in. So, Sean, you’ve been someone who’s cared a lot about your relationships over the entirety of your career, both in investing and operating at Manifold and so many other places. What’s the single biggest win or opportunity that’s come your way that you can trace back to your network and relationships?

Sean
Sure. So I mean, I think two came to mind. One is, I guess the big one was I spent nine years teaching at Kellogg, and that came from my network. The woman who ran the entrepreneurship initiative at Kellogg needed somebody to teach digital marketing. And it just happened there were two or three people who we had similar circles, and they all reached out to her and said, hey, you should talk to Sean. And that was. I was very surprised because I thought there would be a super detailed interview process and all that kind of stuff. But it just spoke to, I think I guest lectured for her one time in her class, and that was the interview. But it kind of speaks to how much what other people say about you matters more than almost what you say about yourself. And so that was almost the interview, the fact that those three people vouched for me. So that’s one. And that was a function of relationships that I had built for many years. As you said, for 12 years I was one of the founding partners at Manifold and my role was kind of on the operations side. And so I didn’t have as much to do on the LP fundraising side and so my relationships were focused more on talent. And so that looked like lots of, and there’s not one specific win there, but there have probably been a dozen folks that- have kind of come through the doors that just in hindsight were just legit ballers. And in every single one of those cases, I knew them months or years before the role actually presented itself. And so it kind of speaks to the point around like not just cultivating relationships, but nurturing those relationships over time, such that when you, and I told them when I first met them, you know. I would love to work with you at some point, and I am going to periodically reach out to you and offer you opportunities, and you can tell me no over and over again, but one of these days, I hope we have an opportunity to do something together. And in a lot of cases, it worked out. And so, you know, the whole like, dig your well before you’re thirsty kind of thing was hugely impactful for our business as well as for our fund companies, so.

Ablorde:
Oh, that’s incredible. And especially, you know, 12, as you described. ballers who are directly creating impact for lots of companies. As a startup founder, I know firsthand how big of a difference one incredible person can make on the trajectory of a business. And so being able to replicate that 12 times over is hugely important. It’s impressive.

Sean:
Yeah, totally. 100%.

Ablorde:
Yeah. And so maybe related to your description of nurturing those relationships over time, I know you talk a fair bit about like the secret of the best networker you ever met.

Sean:
Yeah.

Ablorde:
I’d love to hear what those secrets are.

Sean:
Yeah, sure. So, and it’s kind of deeply ironic. I wrote originally a blog post about it. I’ve done videos about it. It was a good friend of mine who he said, you can share this with as many people as you want. I just don’t want you to say who I am. And I tried to honor that. And so, but he showed me a spreadsheet. The spreadsheet had a column of five names on it, had a column of 25 names on it, had a column of 150 names on it. And this guy’s very aggressive in the sense of he would reach out to the five people multiple times a week, he would reach out to the 25 people weekly, and he would reach out to the 150 people monthly. And the lens on it that I think was different or was illuminating for me, it may be as obvious for a lot of people, but for me at the time it was certainly novel, was… I think a lot of people approach networking as, what can I get out of other people? And he always approached it from, how can I serve other people? And the nuance around the five was, the five were not the people that he thought would help his career or help his projects the most. They were the five who had some acute life event, usually, that he felt like I’m going to materially show up for these people in this season of their life. And so it was… Sometimes it was great stuff, like hey, I just got this new job and it’s my first 90 days and I’m underwater and it’s a big change and how do I make sure I do this well? Sometimes it was, you know, I just raised money or I’ve started my new thing. Sometimes it was I was let go and so he would try to help them find their next job. Sometimes it was a health scare and you know, like how do you go find the best? you know, cardiovascular or whatever kind of physician in the area, you know, how does he show up for them in those kinds of ways too, or they just had a kid, or they just lost a kid, or whatever. And so, but it was, and the lens on it, I mean, it informs so many things for me. I mean, my, I talk elsewhere about. the one metric that matters in life, and that came from Startup Land and the North Star metric, and I was like, well, what would that look like if it were me for my business, or excuse me, for my own life, and I settled on this idea of funeral-worthy relationships, because I felt like if you were willing to fly across the country and drop what you’re doing to go to my funeral, I probably had a material impact on your life in some way. And so then how do you maximize that number, and it kind of came back to this. this friend and how he approached things. And it was like if I, and I’ve never been able to do it with the vigor, let’s say, that he does it. So like my cadence is I try, what I aspire to do is I try to touch my 25 monthly, my 150 quarterly. But I do pick my five and my five I show up for as much as I possibly can. And the idea is like if I, even if it was like on a quarterly basis, if I had five people each quarter who I just went way above and beyond to help. that’s 20 relationships a year, that’s 200 relationships a decade, like it gets big and it’s just a very sort of like life-giving way to approach life, to approach work. it gave me a very redeeming kind of perspective on what it is that, like almost anybody does, you’ll have a lot of conversations with people where they feel a malaise about some aspect of their career or something like that, or like I help tax directors optimize their whatever, and it’s like how do you redeem that? And it’s like well, how do you meaningfully show up for your clients or meaningfully show up for your direct reports or meaningfully show up for other people? It redeems almost any job in a way, and it allows me to kind of elevate above, I could work at a garbage company and I could do this. And so it just was a really neat kind of meta way of thinking that just had a huge impact on my life, and I’ve tried to model it as best I can over the years.

Ablorde:
Now, it’s an incredible kind of framing, funeral-worthy relationships. How did you pick that metric out of curiosity?

Sean:
Um, that’s a great question. I. So as you know, I spent most of my life in startup land and venture land. And there is a narrative. Well, if you talk to somebody, they’re pretty quick to say, hey, venture’s not for everybody, and startups aren’t for everybody, and all that kind of thing. It’s been lionized in a way, where it’s like, yeah, it’s not for everybody, but it’s kind of the best thing. And it’s the thing you should do. And there’s like, Lots of language around it, like make a dent in the universe. And I think a lot of people, when they think of make a dent in the universe, and I see it, like I do these little coaching groups a couple times a year, and I just got off a call with them, and we were talking about these 10-year visions, and for so many people, it’s like, I wanna build a $500 million company, or whatever, and it’s like, well, why, and in service of what, and what would you do if you did that, and would you like who you become if you do that, and all of these kinds of things. And… Those are questions that we don’t really ask ourselves. And what I realize is I feel like, again, I love startups. I love venture. I feel like the make a dent in the universe thing almost came from venture math. Like we need portfolio theory. Like most of my investments aren’t going to make it, so the ones that do need to make a dent in the universe has to find by a very, very large outcome. And it’s just a bad, I feel like it’s a bad narrative for most people. Because when you look at the number of people exits that actually achieve that target, there aren’t a lot. And so it’s like every founder that got acquihired is a failure by that definition. Every founder that tried and failed is a failure by that definition. Employee number 10 at every startup is a failure by that definition because they helped, but they weren’t the one that did it. Everybody that works in consulting is a failure by that definition. The barista at my coffee shop that gives me joy every day. in the form of like a smile and a legal addictive stimulant, you know, but like as a failure by that definition. So like I got really disenfranchised with that idea and I needed a narrative that was broader and that was. redeeming for myself and for more people basically. And so like that’s where I resonated with this idea. And I heard, I remember reading a story, I think it was Donald Miller 10 years ago, talking about this guy that lived in like West Texas. And I think he was a teacher or even like part of the staff at a high school. And he passed away and Donald Miller was asked to go back to speak at the funeral. and he was flying back and they called him and they said, hey, we have to move it out of the auditorium at the high school, it’s gonna be a little bit bigger. And then they called him again and said we gotta move it a little bit bigger. And like long story short is they ended up having to do the funeral inside of the baseball field. Because like 3,000 people went

Ablorde:
Wow.

Sean:
to West Texas to see the, to be, for the funeral of this person. And I don’t remember the specifics around how that guy showed up for all of these people, but the point was that just. He wasn’t famous, he didn’t have a big Instagram following, he didn’t have any of those kinds of things, and yet he made this impact in all these people’s lives. And it just, that super resonated with me, and it was sort of this idea of like, that is a narrative that the barista could have, and that is a narrative that employee number 10 could have, and that is a narrative that could theoretically apply to just about everybody. And so. And it just felt really life giving for me, and it means that I get to go on adventures with people and invite them into it, and it means I get to try to serve people as much as I can, and so it just, it was super resonant for me. Yeah.

Ablorde:
Yeah, no, that’s incredible. I hadn’t heard that story from Donald Miller. That definitely is something we’ll go, I’m gonna go look up after this.

Sean:
Yeah, I think the book is a million miles and 1,000 years.

Ablorde:
Million miles in a thousand years.

Sean:
Yeah, and it’s funny. He starts with a story around, imagine that you went to a movie, and the movie is about a guy that wants a Volvo. And the whole movie, he works really hard to get the Volvo. And at the end, he drives off the parking lot in his new car, and then the credits roll. And he was like, you would probably think that’s a crappy movie. And yet, so many of our goals and so many of our lives and some of the things that we measure ourselves by are kind of like a version of the Volvo. And it was like, it turns out the things that make for a crappy movie would also make for a crappy life. And then the rest of the book is kind of about what would make a meaningful life. So it was neat. It was neat. And it doesn’t mean like, don’t go build the amazing thing and don’t go make it done in the universe. Like the people that do it and that make it create so much value for so many people and definitely do it. I just… I needed something that was redemptive for the 99.99% of people that don’t fit that description.

Ablorde:
Totally makes sense to me. And to your point, it’s something that all of us can aspire to. But in some ways, because all of us can aspire to it, I can very easily see that for almost anybody, life gets in the way, right? That it’s really easy to focus on the day to day rather than to take the step back and think about those 150 or those 25 or five. how do you operationalize the practice of ensuring you’re delivering for those five, as well as staying engaged with the outer rings of that circle, so to speak?

Sean:
Yeah, so a couple things. I talk about like, I have this idea of like a personal operating system, and inside of it there’s task management, relationship management, knowledge management, financial management. As it relates to this specifically, I think the, obviously the relationship management, which you’re very familiar with, is a key piece of that, and that’s using tools. And I should caveat that with, you know, There’s this guy at Manifold, Brett, who I think you probably know. He doesn’t use any, he doesn’t use software. He has it all in his head. It’s amazing, it’s incredible. And I say he’s like the second best networker I’ve ever met. I don’t know how he does it. I’m not capable of doing that. And so if you’re like most people, using software and tools like four degrees is like super helpful in doing that because it gets it out of your head and you don’t have to remind yourself and you can just show up that morning and it’s like, oh, I need to ping so and so. So that’s helpful. I think getting the knowledge management piece is the other piece of it where it’s, I think where a lot of people fall down, one, so like habit formation is just hard in general. And so like it’s a habit like anything else. And so use all of the tools around habit formation at your disposal. So like get it out of your head and use external triggers while you’re trying to build the internal muscles. So like software is super helpful there. Start small. So don’t start with 25 and 150 and five. Start with one. Maybe it’s one, five, 10. Whatever your version is of, make it as easy as possible as another one. Use accountability if you need to, like in the form of external, maybe there are two or three other people that resonate with that idea, and you go on a shared journey together, and you say, hey, did you follow up with your five, or whatever it is. All of those things are super helpful. Being kind to yourself when you fall off the wagon, it’s very similar to implementing GTD. The nice thing about it is once you have it set up, even when you fall off the wagon, it’s pretty easy to get back on and to get current again. So maybe you didn’t follow up with the people you wanted to follow up with last month and you waited a month. Be kind to yourself. That’s not an excuse to scrap the program. jump back in and get current, and maybe you were a month late, but A, they don’t know that, and B, you’re doing better than 99% of the population in terms of maintaining your relationships. The last part is the knowledge management part, and that’s where I think what that does for me is it addresses the question of what in the world do I say? And I learned this from, so Manifold is kind of a weird entity in the sense that we have an advisory practice, and then we have a venture fund. The advisory practice, I learned. the hard way, through lots of trial and error, that people don’t buy professional services the way that they buy anything else, like a car or a gym membership or whatever it is. It’s what they call a credence good, which means it’s like, they basically buy based on a referral or based on I know and trust you already, and the only way I’m gonna know and trust you is building that up over time. So like, how do you do that? And you try to become a trusted advisor to them. And… So the cadence is different than like, if I drop you into like my B2B SaaS funnel, you know? And it’s like, you have these SDR reps that are like, you didn’t reply for one of three reasons and like all of that kind of garbage. It’s like, I’m gonna build a relationship with you over three years or five years, and it’s gonna be, I’m just giving you value and giving you value and giving you value and helping you out and being honest with you and saying like, hey, I don’t think that we’re a good fit for you right now because of X, Y, or Z. let me introduce you to these people. And so it was like that framing was really helpful for me, but it begged the question, how do you provide value? What is touch 17 with that person? And the best way I found to do that is through my knowledge management. And so I… Again, I use software and there’s these tools out there now that allow for what they call bidirectional linking and creating your second brain. It makes me better as a, it made me better on the venture side in terms of pattern recognition and all that kind of stuff. It makes you better at your job, it makes you better at anything, but I think it also creates opportunities for adding value to other people. So taking those ideas as you consume content. getting in the habit of being like, who would this be helpful for? And kind of reaching out to them. Or some of my favorite people, they create these little micro newsletters where it’s not branded, it’s plain HTML, they send it out to a small group of people, it’s from their Gmail account or whatever it is, and it’s just the most interesting stuff that they read with a couple of notes of context on why. And that is super value added for people. And it feels intimate in a way that a corporatey newsletter doesn’t, but it starts from the discipline of knowledge management and things like that, and just sort of getting in the habit of asking, who would this be helpful for? So those are some thoughts. I think the last

Ablorde:
Great.

Sean:
thing is when I talked about getting the work, doing the upfront work, there are a lot of natural touch points. as you get to know people, if you get in the habit of writing things down. So. People, there’s a guy named Harvey McKay, who was an, he had an envelope company in Minneapolis. But he knew like, he knew everybody. He knew Prince, he knew,

Ablorde:
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Sean:
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Sean:
their alma mater, their kids’ birthdays, their anniversary, where they, you know, like, were they in the military? If so, what’s their perspective? Did they like the military? Did they hate the military? You know, like, different things like that. And that gave them all of these opportunities for touch points that were natural, that aren’t like value add in the way of like, I’m gonna share knowledge with you, but were like, hey, I know your anniversary’s coming up in a couple of days. I think that’s number 15, right? Like, what are you doing? And I have tried to implement a version of that. So like when people tell me things like that, I’ve tried to get in the habit of writing that stuff down. And then I never have to remember again. And so it’s a work to get it in the system. But for me, it’s like the five seconds that it takes to go and look up that person and append that note and create that reminder. Now I know… You have three kids, they’re two, four, and seven right now. These are their birthdays, this is your anniversary. Those are five or six touch points that I can have that are natural that most people aren’t pinging them about. And a little secret I learned is that if you ping them, if you ping them a day or two in advance especially, because a lot of people are in the habit of posting on Instagram or whatever it is. If you post a day or two in advance, then they’re like, oh man, that’s amazing. So those are some things that have made it stick, I guess. But at the end of the day, it’s like a habit like anything else and then leaning on tools that allow you to not have to rely on willpower solely or super powerful.

Ablorde:
Yeah, those are incredibly rich recommendations and areas for exploration for not just myself, but so many others. So that was great. I’d be curious, so you described a lot of combination of tools and frameworks and almost like practices

Sean:
Mm-hmm.

Ablorde:
to follow. Like, are there timeframes that you put on your calendar to try to execute a bunch of these things? Are you… doing them in flow and in context. I’d love to figure out like how you almost create the space in your day to actively perform

Sean:
Yeah,

Ablorde:
so many of the things you’re describing.

Sean:
so the short answer is I tinker with it all the time. But I have a, I sound like I’m super OCD, and I might be. But I have what I call an operating cadence. So I have a daily, a weekly, a monthly, a quarterly, and an annual set of processes that I go through. One of which is, so I used to take notes on my computer in the moment. like, you know, we’re on Zoom, and so like, I’m in front of my laptop and all that kind of stuff. I have started to, for the last year maybe, I write down on paper now. And the only reason I do that is I feel like, I think I read something about Bill Clinton once, and it was like, he, it’s startling when you meet him, that you are the only person in the world when he is talking to you. but nothing else exists. Like his ability to be fully, fully present is really powerful. And I observed that when you see me typing, even if I’m typing, like you don’t know that I’m typing notes about our conversation, I could be typing into Slack to somebody replying to me about a thing and you won’t know. And so it just creates some separation there where I’m a little less present. And so what I’ve started doing is getting in the habit of And it’s worked pretty well. So what I do now is I write down my notes on paper. And then as part of my, I have a Friday work wrap-up routine. One of the things that I do is I go in and I update my records. And I go through my paper notes. And I just append stuff there. And so that’s practically how I do it now. And then you get your pings in the morning of, hey, hit up so and so about. their anniversary or you’re supposed to follow up with this person, that happens on a daily basis. And most of that’s, like honestly, most of that’s texting. So it’s pretty easy. It takes like, it doesn’t, again, once you have the system set up, I know 150 names sounds like a big group, but on any given day, you know, again, like my buddy lived in that spreadsheet and that was kind of all he did all day long. I don’t do that. For me, it’s like five or 10 minutes a day. And it, and it feels pretty natural at this point. It’s, you know, so yeah, I don’t know if that answers that question or not.

Ablorde:
Absolutely, it does, right? You both

Sean:
Oh,

Ablorde:
have.

Sean:
one other

Ablorde:
Please.

Sean:
thing. There are, I have, I have, I use Notion for a certain portion of my second brain stuff. It’s not so much for knowledge management as it is for things that will be valuable to others at some point. And so over the years, I have built up ways to serve people. And I keep a lot of that stuff in Notion. And so for example, When somebody takes a new job, I have a version of a first 90 days doc that I send them about this is how I would approach this, just at a high level. I have a referrals document in there that I’ve tried to build out over time. So I made a list of, okay, what are some common things that people might need? doctor, dentist, pediatrician, massage therapist, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I have a list of go-to people, various attorneys, like especially like, you know, you need your corporate attorney, you need like a whole bunch of people, umbrella insurance, liability insurance, you know, like all that kind of stuff. So like that’s a document that I maintain so that when people make an ask, I can refer them. Same with like vendors. So like people. If people, even if I haven’t necessarily worked with them, like if I hear from three or four people that they worked with somebody, so like performance marketing, stuff like that, so those are, that’s like documentation that’s really helpful. And then if I’ve ever done something before that I think other people are probably gonna need, I try to do that too. So, I do, I’m very like GTD-ish, so I… He defines, the guy, David Allen is the guy that created Getting Things Done. He defines a project as anything that requires more than one step to complete. And so I’ve got in the habit whenever I have something to turn it into a project, and then you create a project plan that is just a brain dump in most cases, but like adds fidelity as you do it. And rather than just the project is over, and then it just sort of disappears into the ether. you do the extra step of asking yourself, would anybody else ever benefit from something like this? And so for example, planning your estate is a great one. Or helping, we created a plan, a friend went through, they’re having to deal with aging parents. And I was like, oh, that’s definitely coming. I don’t know when, but that’s gonna come. And I asked them how they went about it, and then my wife and I brainstormed how we think we might do that. So now there’s a document of like plan for aging parents. And then it’s sort of like when that stuff comes up now or I need to find a sitter or I need to find a nanny or, you know, all of that kind of stuff. Like rather than just having those be projects or tasks that then are ephemeral and disappear, there’s a good chance that for some subset of the projects you’re working on, those are gonna be relevant to other people. And so try to codify that. And now that gives me a whole bunch of other ways to add value to people over time, where I’m not having to reinvent the wheel over and over again. And I can just quickly hop in there and be like, you know. So, yeah.

Ablorde:
That makes total sense. It’s almost creating to your point. Taking all that knowledge and all of the work you’ve done, turning those into shareable resources that allow you to create value for people, going back to your point around being a trusted advisor and just generally pouring life into people without

Sean:
Yeah.

Ablorde:
having to spend all the time each time.

Sean:
Which is super helpful professionally too. I mean, like on LinkedIn, like I’m sharing like SOP documents or template or things like that pretty regularly and it’s just like, hey, raise your hand and like I’ll send it to you or whatever. And so to your point, like even though I don’t have a specific objective usually with why I’m sharing some of those things, you’re building up trust with people and like you said, like you’re, you know, you’re, so that at some indeterminate future date, you know, like something might happen. And I think that’s the other, the system and the discipline only works if you’re not trying to make it transactional. Because like if you’re trying to like, if I’m gonna do this favor for you and then I’m gonna keep track of it and then I’m gonna ask for a favor from you, you’re not gonna stick with it because a lot of those people won’t quote return the favor, so to speak, or not because they don’t want to or because they’re bad people, it’s just like they’re busy or whatever it is. And so like if you, If you’re doing it for what you’re, it’s like in Field of Dreams, it’s like if you’re doing it for what you’re gonna get out of it, it’s not gonna happen. And so

Ablorde:
Hmm.

Sean:
you’re not gonna stick with it. And so you do it because you really enjoy it and you like helping people and that’s sort of its own reward. But it does come back to you in ways that usually you don’t expect and will happen five years later, eight years later, whatever it is. So that’s, we didn’t mention that before, but if you’re doing it out of some, you know, tit for tat kind of thing, like you’re not gonna stick with it.

Ablorde :
Yeah, no, makes total sense. Maybe I will, I know we’re coming up on your time, Sean, so maybe I will wrap with this last question. What is your single biggest lesson you’ve learned about relationship management that you think most people get wrong?

Sean:
Um, I think that’s probably it. It’s like starting from the premise of like love of just serving people, like loving people. Um, and how do you show that in tangible ways? So like the idea of like. you know, like, lots of things there. Like love is not something that you think, it’s something that you do. Like values I’ve learned over the years, like values ultimately manifest themselves in action and so like, if you don’t. If you don’t do the things that demonstrate that you have that value, you have to ask yourself, do you actually have that value? And so for me, I wrote down, I have a defined statement of values and what matters to me, and I wrote down the implications of what that means and what it doesn’t, and one of them is like, create memorable stories and invite other people into them. And so it is a source of, if you think about it that way and you think about relationships that way, rather than… how can you serve me and how can you move forward my agenda? It is a recipe, one, you’re not gonna be disappointed if they don’t, because you don’t care, that’s not why you’re doing it. Two, it’s sort of a deep, it’s a deep source of meaning and fulfillment. Again, getting back to like the make a dent thing, it gives you an opportunity almost regardless of job, regardless of product or service that you sell. regardless of season of life that you’re in. You know, like if you’re 75 and you’re no longer working, big chunks of the world think that you’re no longer useful to people. A lot of people wrestle with that. This is a way to have deep fulfillment at any stage of life. You know, and again, in any type of business, any type of industry, any job function. And… I think it’s a way, like you might have other aspects of your life that are in limbo or whatever it is, but like it’s a way to almost never be. like almost like a way to never be fully unhappy with your life because you have these like, you get to get out of your own head and you get to go and serve people every single day and that is like endlessly fulfilling. So, and I think that’s just to see like networking, just turning that one idea on its head and choosing to have that be a mechanism to serve just kind of changes everything about you.

Ablorde:
Absolutely. There have been so many lessons and different frameworks that you’ve provided in this conversation that I personally will take away and use to almost honestly rethink and to reshape how I manage my own relationships and knowledge. So I’m incredibly excited for more people to hear this. Sean, if other people want to either continue to follow you, hear more about your perspectives on these topics or others, where can they find you?

Sean:
Yeah, I mean, I’m on Twitter and LinkedIn. I post most days. I’m trying to do more YouTube stuff, learning how that works and figuring that out. But yeah, no, I mean, as you know, this is kind of close to my heart. So kind of regardless of what I do professionally, this is what I find myself talking about most often. So yeah, Twitter, I’m intentionally. LinkedIn, just my name. And then. But yeah, this was super fun and I don’t know. I think it’s neat that you’re going out to the world with trying to get more people to start to think this way. So thanks for the work that you’re doing in that regard.

Ablorde:
And thank you for being willing to share your message and your perspective on it with the world. So thank you so much

Ablorde:
and we will talk soon.

Sean:
Appreciate it.